In the city I reside in there is a fire brewing regarding the use of webcams by a newly developed city tourism dept.

Follow this:
1. New tourism dept. switches server from the city servers to a private company (the tourism director's husband happens to work for said company!) Red flags go up all over the place for me...

2. Suddenly they announce an interest in adding web cams to select areas of the city.

3. They follow thru with this, first using active X controls. I put up a stink, exposed this to the public via a local forum I run, active X control is removed and Java is used in its place.

4. Webcam is now being used to monitor a specific section of the city by this tourism dept.

Now, before you get to thinking I'm just being paranoid, please consider my concerns. Firstly, I don't think a public webcam should be in the hands of a tourism dept. I think only police should be allowed to employ the use of webcams and only for potential crime.

We have several neighborhoods who have been fighting, begging and pleading for cameras in local parks where drugs, gangs and general crime is running rampant. They've been ignored. Our gangs in the last year have gone up from 27 to 41. We have very real concerns and would like to see cameras installed for use by law enforcement to monitor crime, not the average citizen looking to enjoy a day at our lake (that's where the current web cam is and another one is going to be added soon).

So basically what I'm asking is, am I correct to be concerned about this use of public webcams? Who wants to think they're being viewed by a tourism dept.? We also have a very corrupt mayor who pulled quite a few strings and broke the law by buying a vote to get this tourism dept. in the hands of the city instead of where it was, which was where it should be - a County Chamber of Commerce.

I'm totally open to your thoughts. This is becoming extremely troubling for me and many others in my community and I sincerely feel we have valid reasons, but would like the thoughts of those not directly involved -- who can merely view this from an objective angle, as I'm obviously very personally involved and affected. Thank you!!

I think you are justified to be concerned.

I also think cameras deter crime...but at the same time they open up a huge debate as to what will be done with the footage and who will be pointing the cameras.

America is moving more and more to the use of these things, while the EU has been sticking them just about everywhere and have gotten use to them for the most part. The word here in my part of the U.S. is that we will forget about them once they are in. Our town has just started adding them to a few bridges to show if a accident has happened - but not too much more. These cameras are monitored by the Highway Patrol and not the tourist counsel.

Our town has been rocked by the occasional story about cameras being mis-used in stores, restaurants and public bathrooms that certainly get you thinking about camera abuse. And just about any dress/skirt that is shorter than 4" above the knees came be *upskirted* (completely) by store security cameras!

And the Google cams that display city streets have been under fire for the same reasons that you bring up.

The next concern with your situation is if they put the footage on the tourist counsel's website, which would then bring the world into your neighborhood. This is a bad idea to me. If a bad guy can see a potential victim's house and figure out where they live...this is a very unsafe situation, from my thinking.

I would stay on top of this matter and dig around and find out as much as possible. You are smart to question the use of cams in today's world.

James

Thank you, James, so much. Your input was extremely helpful. This is a very "new" thing around here and I'm so incredibly uncomfortable with it but I can't seem to get people to understand the full ramifications of this, and frankly, I'm not as up-to-speed on web cams and all the potential issues surrounding their use as I wish I was, but you just helped that problem considerably! I owe you! Will proudly give karma

Ah, Thanks! I am only happy to offer my thoughts on the matter. I do not like the breach of privacy these toys afford someone.

I can order a wireless camera that will beam the signal 300 feet (wireless) to my computer -or- tv and see and hear everything going on outside. You can even record it to a VCR or hard drive and view it later. While this sounds like a great security device...there have been several reports of neighbors setting these up and pointing them at someones backyard pool or two story window! Because of the size (a magic marker or less)...nobody knows!

You can get them to see in the dark, too. And with 300X zoom, it means that for every 300 feet, I can see the object as well as if it were 1 foot away! And they have 600X zoom and beyond!!

The math is quite scary. With the distance of the zoom -plus- the distance of the wireless signal, someone can be far, far away from the camera itself.

It pretty much means no privacy unless behind closed doors & windows.

And in my tourist town, I have nabbed people walking through stores with a shopping bag with cameras in them, so all they have to do is lean the bag under a woman's dress and capture footage! Again, nobody is the wiser because they will stand with their back to the female and simply lean the bag a little.

Once someone enters your personal 3' bubble, pay close attention!

It truly is a crazy world we live in now. But through research like your doing, you can understand how things work and better yourself against these techniques.

James

Thank you, James, again, so much. I'm beginning to feel like pounding my head against the wall -- I can't get people to understand all of this! I've read much on this issue now and there are some that seriously feel this type of thing is unconstitutional, in that vacationing somewhere should be a protected activity, void of worrying about being on a camera! And I agree!

I'm just frustrated out of my mind with my fellow residents that they just won't or can't see the larger picture here. Any clues how a person could put this in terms anyone can understand?

I even accessed a tourist web cam, zoomed in a some people, took screenshots and posted them and STILL everything is keeping their mouths shut....I know some are thinking about it and a few seemed stunned, but for the most part I just getting the equivalent of blank stares on this one.

While I am glad I was able to offer some more information on this, I am sad to hear that you are having a hard time convincing others of the dangers. Many people today do not consider things, until they happen to them - which is often way too late!

Maybe you could build a collection of facts of the various ways things can go wrong and then "casually bring up the topic in a non-aggressive suggestion" like...I was looking around the internet and WOW, you would not believe what I stumbled upon.!? If you thought the bad guys + malware was bad enough...wait until you meet some bad guys + malware + webcams/public cams.!

Here are a few to add to your collection:

A coworker uses a webcam to upskirt his coworker.

A worm discovered in the wild in 2004 that's not just settling for invading users' PCs--it wants to invade their homes, too.

According to Spanish newspaper reports, two seventeen year-olds were arrested yesterday in Alicante, charged with creating a Trojan horse which allowed them to remotely take control of webcams within local educational institutions. This enabled the duo to spy on students and record compromising images, which they then used to blackmail the victims into giving them money.

Webcams: tools for safety or bait for stalkers?

A U.K. government review in 2004 found that security cameras were effective in tackling vehicle crime but had limited effect on other crimes. Improved street-lighting recorded better results.

DAYTON- Mark Wayne Miller, age 45, of Dayton, pled guilty yesterday to one count of Computer Intrusion, arising out of his equally successful efforts to secretly intercept, watch, and record live webcam footage of minor-age girls, without the girls knowing that Miller was watching and recording. Miller faces a minimum of 35 years and up to life in prison when sentenced.


Those lovely cameras at use!

Oh my gosh, thank you SO much for those references -- I'm going to post those right away in our local forum...I've been searching but guess I wasn't using the right search terms or something as I've been having a difficult time coming up with things that would wake these people up. I did find some but these are far better.

Can't tell you enough how much I appreciate this. I think some are starting to think about it a little. I had one person ask me how I was able to zoom in on a web cam screenshot I took as an example.

I also expressed my concerns to my aldermen but they're totally ignoring me on the issue. But I'm not giving up, not by a long shot!!!

This helps a lot ... let's hope this gets some attention!!

You are very welcome!

I will try and dig up some more stuff once I get a little more time.

Keep me posted on how things are going with this and hopefully they will come around and realize the "potential for abuse" that exists with these tech toys.

- James

I think I'm getting some attention among residents, but can't get any aldermen to sit up and take notice. Blast them.

I have one challenging me saying they can't see how anyone could zoom in on someone thru the webcam used on the city tourism site, but I reminded them it isn't just the people on their computers, it's also who's in control of the webcam... I think that almost worries me more what with our current, so-called "leadership" in the city.

As long as Law Enforcement or some kind of security is in charge of the web cams, I think they should be used more and I wish they were used more in my community. I don't think that some tourism branch or something that has to do with city commerce (businesses) should have more than what they need to protect their own business.

I can see the web site for a tourist attraction showing how the houses near the area at night seldom have people out and about, and one house is always dark since the husband and wife are doctors and work night shift. Hmmm.... [/sarcasm] But it could happen...

Originally Posted by micaman

It pretty much means no privacy unless behind closed doors & windows.

Actually, the closed doors and windows don't mean that much anymore. Though you might not be able to readily recognize a person's face, there are web cams that can not only see in the dark, but they get heat signatures (like in the Predator movies). The heat is enough to see who is home, what they are doing, and all behind closed doors. There's a lot more technology out there than what most people believe.

Originally Posted by fitnfree

I have one challenging me saying they can't see how anyone could zoom in on someone thru the webcam used on the city tourism site, but I reminded them it isn't just the people on their computers, it's also who's in control of the webcam...

Sounds like some pretty naive people. I guess they don't know there's things like trojans, worms, or whatever. Maybe they aren't naive, just technologically impaired.

fitnfree, you have a hard battle, but I hope you do well in it!

Dave